In my day job, I'm a paramedic. In ambulances all around the country are people just like me. Some work for government agencies, some for nonprofit organizations and many work for private corporations that respond to 911 calls under contract with cities or counties.
If you call 911 for an ambulance, you'll get one. Indeed, it's federal law that you must be treated without regard to whether you can pay the bill or not.
Apparently, it's not that way for all types of emergency services.
Firefighters in South Fulton, Tennessee refused to respond when Gene Cranick's house was burning down. Cranick reportedly did not pay the $75 annual fire protection fee required of homeowners living outside South Fulton city limits.
In the past, fire protection wasn't always a government duty. Insurance companies funded the business by selling fire protection to homeowners. If you had the insurance company's medallion on your house, the fire company would put out the flames. If not, your house would burn.
Imagine the outrage if big, corporate insurance agnencies did the same thing today. Apparently, it's not only still legal to do that in Tennessee, it's the municipal governments running the racket. Residents call it "Pay to Spray."
According to a report in the Union City Messenger, the Pay to Spray system is for rural homeowners living outside city borders. The cities provide fire protection for taxpaying residents inside city limits, but rural folks only get protected if they opt to pay a fee, which in South Fulton is 75 bucks.
It's reported that Cranick or his neighbor offered to pay whatever it took to get the fire department to respond, but they were told it was too late. According to the Messenger story, South Fulton's mayor compared the rural fee to an insurance premium and held that if the fire department responded to houses that didn't pay the fee, there would be no incentive to pay it.
So, I guess there's nothing like burning a house or two to the ground to make sure everybody else pays for protection. In the big city, they call that extortion.
I wonder how much more outrage there would be if someone had been inside Cranick's house. Most of my patients don't have insurance. Some of my patients are arguably abusing the fact that we won't turn them down. I've even had one patient stop complaining of chest pain once the ambulance doors were closed, announcing to my partner that she just wanted morphine. Despite admitting she was just searching for a drug fix, the patient was still treated.
I've been in emergency services -- as a firefighter and a paramedic -- for 23 years. When I was just a young probationary, I learned about insurance medallions. At the time, I thought the concept was barbaric.
My opinion hasn't changed.
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The history of fire fighting was a highly competitive business in some cities. It has taken time to develop into the noble profession we see today — in most places.
For everyone’s good, we can’t have a blazing building in the middle of a dense city as the fire can spread. I suppose if it is out in the country, then there is less public danger.
And yet, today in my neck of the woods there was a house fire that triggered a brush fire that could have spread to be a forest fire or to burn other property. In fact, 80 years ago, one of the largest forest fires in US history happened from a spark in the exact same area.
When you don’t fight fire, you are playing with fire.
I guess to be fair here, I should point out that the South Fulton Fire Department did eventually respond to the fire — when Cranick’s neighbor, who’d paid his fee, called. The neighbor was reportedly concerned that the fire might spread.
To continue in all fairness, it should be noted that the firefighters were ready in case the neighbor’s house caught fire. And, in that state of readiness, stood and watched Cranick’s house burn to the ground.
WB, I agree wholeheartedly with you and I appreciate your comments. The fire service has worked very hard to polish its public image. I think it’s the tarnish on that image that makes this story so unpalatable.
I’m horrified that fire fighters (misnomer) sat by and allowed innocent family pets and a home burn to the ground when all could have easily been saved. It’s unforgiveable and they should be ashamed. Orders or no orders, they should have turned on those hoses and done the right thing! In my state, fire fighters are our beloved heroes for good reason. Everyone is protected as a moral obligation toward the common good whethor or not they have paid their taxes.
If the county wants universal coverage they should start a county fire department or pay the fees themselves from county property taxes.
The city is under no obligation to use city taxes to finance fire services for county residents. It is nice that they offer this special service of offering coverage to those who wish to purchase it. For those who wish to go without fire coverage they assume the risk themselves should their house catch fire.
This is just the most stupid thing I have ever heard of! |
$75!!!
and you, as a firefighter, as a human being, will just stand there and do nothing. Just watch a house burn down because the man did not pay $75! What’s next? A man calls 911 asking for help because someone is trying to kill him. Oh sir, sorry it seems like you haven’t paid x fees. Pay it and we’ll be there in a sec. If you survive…
So if someone in New Jersey calls the New York fire department because their house is burning, is it their responsibility to show up?
What if the NY Fire Department offered a “fee for service” for those in New Jersey? Would they be expected to fight EVERY fire that occurred in New Jersey?
Once at the fire, those firefighters had a moral obligation to put out that fire. What if people were dying inside the house? Would they just stand there and say “Good Golly Ms. Molly, too bad they didn’t pay the $$. Oh well Bubba, let’s get a coffee and wait until they’re all dead.” Now, that is some crazy stuff..
John and Alan,
I’m not against paying for service. In my home county in California, rural areas that are covered by city fire departments aren’t protected out of the kindness of the cities’ hearts. However, in all of those situations, assessments are placed on property taxes. For the good of the community, you pay for fire protection, like it or not.
To Alan especially, if the FDNY offered to contract with NJ to respond to fires there, then they better respond to them all. In this case, we’re talking about the fire department tasked with responding to this area. There wasn’t anyone else to do it.
I take issue with Tennessee’s system because it allows homeowners to opt out. It puts the fire departments in a bad situation. Now, for missing a $75 charge, this house is gone.
I wasn’t able to contact the authorities myself, but I’m waiting to hear more about this Pay to Spray system. What would have happened if Cranick had told 911 there was someone in the house? Would the fire department have responded then?
If not, then I have an even bigger problem with this plan. Because, whether you believe him or not, Cranick says he forgot to pay. It’s a plausible scenario, which should not mean the difference between life and death.
How about a fine if you use fire service without paying the fee? I think it’s imperative that emergency services respond to emergencies, despite the presence or absence of a “paid in full” stamp on the building.
Lives now, dollars later. It’s how we do it on the ambulance.
Alan – Your metaphor makes no sense in regards to the story. You sound like a loon.
yes if there was a person in the home when it was burning they would have responded. (It was mentioned in several articles I read about this) There were 3 dogs and a cat that were killed in the fire.
They did respond when a neighbors field caught fire. Fire can be unpredictable, letting it burn risked a far greater catastrophe, ie. wild/brush fires.
I’m glad that the International Association of Fire Fighters is speaking out about this. Those paid firefighters seem to have forgotten all about the IAFF Code of Ethics.
I agree that it should be run like EMS. A subscription is available, but you or your insurance company gets billed if you don’t have the subscription.
Yep I bet they get more people paying now…now that they are sufficiently intimidated.
Firstly, as you point out not only were fire departments originally created as private entities, they would also often be in competition. Sometimes they would sabotage each others equipment or even start fires themselves to generate more business. This is why they were eventually socialised.
Socialism isn’t a dirty word, yet Americans have come to believe it is. This is the result.
Do you have any idea how much money it costs to maintain a full time professional fire department with staff on call 24 hours a day ready to throw themselves into fires to save life and property?
If they had accepted his offer to charge what it actually cost to have that fire company there, he would have had to sell the home and probably been in debt for the rest of his life.
At least this way he still has a block of land to rebuild on.
I note he had house insurance. How come he remembered to pay that?
People are saying the firefighters were heartless for allowing his house to burn. How many firefighters die each year to save people’s houses? Should they take that risk for a guy who couldn’t be bothered to pony up a small annual fee?
Also, please note that the fire started because someone on the property was burning rubbish. The home owner burned his own home down – not the fire department.
Finally, while all these people are up in arms about this incident… how many American CHILDREN are living on the street, eating out of garbage cans to survive?
Where is the outrage about THAT?
In Detroit, when we see fire, we put it out and ask questions later. Those guys aren’t firefighters. They’re a bunch of fools playing dress-up.
Detroit Firefighter sums it up very nicely.
The fire service, the rescue service, the EMS service, and law enforcement, all operate under a simple standard…
“You turn in an emergency call for help, YOU GET THE HELP… PERIOD.”
“Pay to spray” sounds like the motto of a local tavern, advertising how their beer helps one urinate a little more.
It sure as HELL isn’t the motto of any respectable fire service!
These jokers aren’t firefighters… they’re something else. And that police department that arrested the fellow that busted the fire chief in the chops? They need to go back and arrest the fire chief for dereliction of duty, wanton endangerment, and any other appropriate charge. While they’re there… every firefighter that attended that run, needs to also be cuffed and stuffed. Might as well save some cuffs for the mayor of that town also.
I spent 15 years in the volunteer fire service… and NEVER have I seen, nor heard of anything so shameful in the business in my life.
As a very rural firefighter I feel for these people. But I feel for the firefighters more. As I watched the news this morning the woman was bemoaning the fact that all her mothers belongings were lost in the blaze. Obviously she didn’t value her house and belongings at $75.
It is a fact that fire departments cost money to run. Our truck payments and insurance for the department is astronomical. If everyone in the rural area surrounding that county refused to pay the $75 fee because they knew that they would still get fire protection, the department would not be funded as necessary and the department would close and no one would have fire protection.
I know that if there was the threat to anyones life that the department would have saved them.
No firefighters life is worth a pet! Sorry.
I feel sorry for the firefighters that had their hands tied. Unfortunate for all.
I too am a paramedic from Philadelphia. The one thing you miss in your review of the activities here is how your agency and another are supported. After alot of research into this incident and my knowledge as a Chief Officer, I can say you missed a few facts. First, few EMS agencies are tax supported, many rely on insurance billing for their response and daily operating expenses. The opposite is true of many fire depts. Few receive insurance payments that support daily expenses. This puts the burden on the Fire Dept to fund training, equipment maint., new equipment and overhead. Some agencies receive tax money to pay for these expenses, and as recently observed nationally, that funding is the first cuts in many municipalities. Other agencies, primarily volunteers, rely on yearly fund drives, hoagie sales, and straight up begging to fund the needed materials. That being pointed out, we get to this specific incident. The homeowner lived in an unincorporated section of the county, meaning he had no local taxes as he does not live within any municipality. The area he lives in has no fire services contracted or otherwise and as such the State of TN allowed larger cities like South Fulton to provide services for a yearly fee. These services are extremely delayed as they are not inside the response district of the South Fulton Fire Dept. While the rest of the country is laying off firefighters to maintain public libraries and the costs to maintain their local politicians, this agency is struggling too. Their apparatus line up is not very impressive with what appears to be 1970 Macks with 500 GPM pumps and the Chief Officer has the high education of only FF 1, Pump Ops and EMT with 12 yrs of experience, I am sure this is more due to lack of funding and not from lack of desire. If his neighbors knew that they could still get fire protection without paying a yearly fee, how long do you think the Fire Dept would continue to operate? Its not like they are running beyond their means already.
What is the collective IQ of this city no one thought if you don’t pay the $75 and you require the service there is a $5,000.00 fee? Compassion. Yes I volunteer in my community and help my neighbors when they need me. Take a minute where is the America I knew? This is not politics this is humane behavior. S in Arkansas
Spray the house – it’s burning, isn’t it? Send the folks a bill later. Or charge a fine. Fire fighters who don’t put out fires send a message that they can’t be depended on. And – I thought “protection” money like that went out of style with Jimmy Hoffa.
i AHVE BEEN A FIRE FIGHTER IN lOS ANGELES FOR TWENTY YEARS THESE ARE NOT REAL FIRE MAN NOR ARE THEY PROFESSIONAL. tHYE ALL NEED TO BE BROUGHT UPON CHARGES FOR EXTORTION. i PICK UP PEOPLE ALL THE TIME WITH NO INSURANCE OR A POT TO PISS IN. WE DONT DECIFER IF THEY HAVE MONEY OR NOT. REAL FIREFIGHTERS WOULD AHVE NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN. BUT YOU ARE DEALING WITH A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN MARRY YOURE SISTER. THIS ATRICLE HAS REACHED THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOC OF FIRE CHIEFS AND THIER COMMENT REFLECTS SOMETHING YOU WOULD SEE SADAAM HUSSEIN DO TO HIS PEOPLE. QUIT THE FIRE BUSS YOU ARE NOT REAL FIREFIGHTERS AND THE FIRE CHIEF SHOULD BE SHOT AT SUN DOWN.TOTALLY UN ACCEPTABLE I AM SO DISGUSTED I CANT EVEN BELIEVE IT
This is ol’ gangster style fire fighting. Can you imagine if prehospital did the “Mother, Jugs and Speed” type of ambulance? Give me the cash first ma’am and we’ll take you to the hospital. This is outdated and you call 911 and get billed for emergency medical services rendered.
If a law enforcement officer just stood around and watched, because a person did not pay taxes, as someone was being injured or killed we would be outraged and society would not stand for such actions. Oh wait…we DO have folks who DON’T pay taxes and yet we all deserve public safety.
This fire department was obviously not too short on funds as they had the ability to staff and respond to the incident. I would even bet on the fact the responders (dare I say fire fighters) had their hoses charged and were in position to protect the neighbors house. Would this additional action of putting out the fire put the budget crisis of the dept. over the edge? I bet not.
The system in Tenn. is broken. Add a homeowners tax for the public’s safety. The actions of this dept. does not warrant for these responders to be called heroes. Heroes do what is right and good. Not sit and watch as more damage or harm occurs.
This is not an “insurance policy”…this is an issue of public safety. Time to update the current protocol for financing the dept. Shame on the Tenn. Fire Dept.
Does this fire company get any federal grants. If so they should have to pay them all back. This is absolutely disgusting.
For Immediate Release Contact: Tim Burn
October 5, 2010 202 230-7167
Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton’s Decision to Let Home Burn
Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee: “The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest priorities.
“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”
The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000 full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics and is the leading advocate for health and safety of first responders in North America.
More information is available at http://www.iaff.org
This is so depressing… Where is compassion?
Too many people are working jobs with no desire for the profession they work. This is an outrage and should never have happened.
How could those people just watch somebodys life burn down to the ground because they did not pay 75 dollars? Who thinks like that?
I hope they all lose their jobs and have to pay fines for their choices.
Response to working house fire/ Difficult to understand why the county in which the fire occur has not done THEIR JOB in working with citizens to ensure contract services with the outside county or provide tax structure or levy fees to offset expenses. South Fulton FD/ CITY- appears NOT to have a mutual aid program with the other jurisdiction – mutual aid means both areas have services to share- not in this case. Contract services for fire protection exist all over the country.
However- this is a clear case of the rural Jurisdiction not providing access to core public safety services, Insurance companies have fire protection fees programed into premiums. It is a wonder why South Fulton does not set up a subscription services that is based on a set fee for services , if not paid in advance then a full service bill for fire operations is then sent to property owner for processing through ins company- they would get more money that way. Also the TN state Insurance agency should be involved in this issue. Legal issue for South Fulton- if the FF’s did work on the house fire and get hurt without a contract ( fee) the workers comp for injury payment to the firefighter would be denied. Lots of issues with this rural area board of supervisors NOT doing their job. NOT South Fulton. Sad to say.
I think it’s pretty sick and sad that there’s even any debate involved in this greedy, spiteful operation. I say spiteful, because Mr. Cranick offered to pay the costs of their services (which would have been much, much more than $75) and their answer basically amounted to “too bad, shoulda thunka that ‘fore you didn’t pay our money!” At that point, it ceased to be an issue of funding and became a matter of punishing a citizen for not ponying up with the extortion fee.
What makes me even sicker than this story are the smug words of support for this policy, some even going as far as trying to kick this family while they’re down. (”Obviously she didn’t value her house and belongings at $75.”) This obviously comes from someone who isn’t charged a “premium” for basic human decency and who has never had to make the awful decision between a POSSIBLE fire and DEFINITE hunger. (Having said that, I’m sure Mark will come back with tales of doing without so he could support his fine heroes, but I don’t buy it. He’s an ass and he had his chance to make those words sound rational and humane.)
It also sickens me to hear people speak out in support of those mercenaries in fire-proof gear who dared to call themselves firefighters. Every one of those creatures who stood by and watched a person’s home burn to the ground over a measly $75 (or any sum of money) should never be allowed to touch a fire hose again. I thought Tennessee was the “Volunteer State.” There are some things that go beyond “cash services” and FIGHTING FIRE is one of them. I suppose next it’ll be OK to send children home with untreated pneumonia and unset broken bones, ’cause well… their parents should have PAID for insurance. I guess compassion will soon be auctioned off to the highest bidder!
THE FEE HAS BEEN $75 FOR 20 YEARS!!! The service went into effect in 1990 and has been the same cost since. Prior to this there had been NO SERVICE. People who don’t pay $75 deserve to have their home burn to the ground. They are dumb, plain and simple.
The people who live in the city and pay taxes to support the fire dept should not have the economic burden of paying for the schleps who live out in the country and prefer to “free-load”. It isn’t right, it isn’t fair.
The law is just in this case.
Steve…There are many wrong and immoral events that continue over generations. This does not make the protocol or rules right.
What an absolute ignorant statement saying they are dumb and deserve it in any way. Civil rights has been trying to educate ignorance out of this kind of thinking for generations.
You must be one of the pathetic individuals who works for such an agency who behaves in such shameful and morally bankrupt ways.
As a human how can you think that he deserves to have the fire dept. stand and watch as it burns? We put out fires started by negligent behavior every day. Does this mean we as a society should just let all fires started by dumb people burn? No, this action would be barbaric.
If you are in emergency services….do Me and my fellow dedicated first responders a favor…quit. We are fighting to help our community. We don’t need angry, unwilling, hateful people like you in the industry. Open a slot for someone who wants to HELP.
Many things are done out of tradition or are outdated rules. It does not make it right. What it does, is make it TIME FOR CHANGE.
Back in the early ’90’s I lived in Pima County, AZ. Fire protection was not provided. You had a choice to sign up with one of two private providers. We chose Rural Metro. It was common knowledge that no coverage no spray.
After a 2 years the subdivision I lived in along with an adjacent subdivision were able to form a fire district and roll the fees into our HOA dues.
Then in 2003 I moved to Blount County, TN outside of Maryville and again I had to contract with Rural Metro again for service.
Those of us who have lived in rural Arizona and Tennessee (and I’ve lived in both) know the risk. In AZ we formed a fire district in TN we didn’t.
People say it is a disgrace to let a man’s home burn because he didn’t pay a fee… That the fire fighters should have risked there lives to save a possesion… The way I see it… if i was a fire fighter how could I trust a guy to pay me back a couple of grand if he “forgot” to pay 75 bucks up front and in the time it took the fire to spread from his shed to his house forgot TO GET HIS PETS OUT?… Especially if I showed up and the house looked like it might be too late to save…. everyone is comparing EMT’s and Police to this scenario and that is NOT a fair analysis… these people save lives.. in this case it was a saving of PROPERTY… if the guy “forgot” to pay his house payment he would lose it.. if the fire started in his home and he “forgot” to buy insurance he’d be even more out of luck…have we become so materialistic that we now equate property with the equal sacredness of LIFE? THIS IS NONSENSE!!!
also it’s not extortion… it would’ve been extortion if the fire fighters agreed to fight the fire ONLY if the dude paid the full service costs… it’s a better example of socialism gone bad because they put regulations first…If that was a private fire dept. a deal would’ve been made because it would’ve been better for business.. but since it is tax funded, then well, they have steady income and a law that makes them a government owned monopoly in the rural areas…
My heart goes out to the guy, losing a home is a horrible travesty.. but I can’t see anyway in which he wasn’t at fault; he didn’t pay the fee, he started the fire and he didn’t get the animals out before the fire hit his house… So why are we holding the fire fighters responsible for not risking their lives over property and stopping the fire from endangering other lives? Was that house really worth more than the risk of a fire fighter’s life?
Initially I was just as mad as you guys are because my tax dollars fund my fire dept. but after thinking about it for a while I realized that if my community wasn’t able to afford it’s own dept. it then becomes MY responsibility to insure my property until other means become available… in order to be truly free we can neither be slaves to our government or have our government be slaves to us… because if a government bends to the will of a person who doesn’t support it, the person who didn’t support it will own it and by proxy everyone else….
But don’t worry I’m sure some special interest group will find who ever can most afford to be at fault and sue them for the costs of the home and then rebuild him another home free of charge and the guy will live mortgage free in his new home because after all he is the victim…
Worth noting that the Median household income in South Fulton is below state average with 16 percent of residents living below the poverty line in 2008, nearly half of those well below poverty levels. That year the per capita income of S. Fulton residents was $19,740.
That means $75 is not small change in those parts. There needs to be a role for philanthropy to fill the gap between basic human need and the ability ot residents to meet those needs.
Perhaps this incident will spark (no pun intended) that sort of initiative. Compassion can meet action to prevent future incidents like this. The local Community Foundation should convene a study group to stimulate solutions involving all parties here — everyone can contribute to problem-solving.
Letting houses burn is not an option.
Data from:http://www.city-data.com/city/South-Fulton-Tennessee.html#ixzz11eNVSoi4
I can not believe this happened.What happened to helping our neighbors.Where I live the fire department is run by volunteers and no one is ever turned down.Do they get their money back if they don’t call the fire department that year?????
Those who are arguing that the individual deserved what he got simply because he didn’t pay $75 are ignoring the fact that the firefighters were on the scene and simply watched the house burn. They had the means to contain this fire but did nothing. Would you be able to do the same thing with someone waving $75 in their hand begging you to save their house? Would you be able to look at that person in the eye and say, “It’s too late”? I know I wouldn’t. It’s immoral. It goes against everything we are taught about what is right and wrong. If you think you could or that you would, I truly feel sorry for you.
I like this story and the ensuing discussion because I believe it points to a wider point/discussion in our American way of life. Social programs such as fire protection fall under that banner of Socialism. And as pointed out in an earlier comment, Socialism has been turned into a dirty word. Like it or not, fire protection is a socialistic concept and is thankfully a real humanistic desire to proactively assist our fellow man. Many fellow Americans push for less government under the guise of more freedom, but as this story graphically points out, freedom to pay for services or not results in tragedy. If those who argue to disband our fundamental social programs, such as medicare, social security and yes cops and fire, then our evolutionary wisdom of human protective services such as these would not exist. And I have to tell you that I am not a history expert, but you don’t have to look to far into the past to remember that whole cities would burn to the ground without an organized socialistic fire protection service. We have all seen the bread lines in the 1930’s and 40’s when there were no social programs. People would simply go hungry. These people that argue for less social programs will be whining about that hunger pain just like the rest of us. I would argue that going back to the days of no social programs, would simply be several steps back in our evolutionary quest to better our lives. Repealing these social programs is straight up dumb. And sitting by to watch someone’s house burn down is just as dumb. The really concerning point in all this is that there is a segment of our human society that is unwilling to help there fellow man.
Everyone is talking about helping out a neighbor… where was this guy when it was time for him to help out his neighbors and fund the fire dept? How many people here have sent him money to help him out? (I bet his neighbors are gonna help him) That’s the problem with America today we expect somebodyELSE to do something… When the fire fighters got there they said it was too late to save the trailer.. Should they have focused on an unsavable house and let the fire spread to the other house?
Nick, you’re presuming a lot in your statement. You’re presuming he missed all of his payments when he could have only missed this year’s payment. You’re presuming the fire department got there too late to save the house. You’re also presuming to know what a fireman is and what his or her duty is in that position. It’s clear you do not. Let me clarify it for you:
The Fireman’s Oath:
I promise concern for others. A willingness to help all those in need.
I promise courage – courage to face and conquer my fears. Courage to share and endure the ordeal of those who need me.
I promise strength – strength of heart to bear whatever burdens might be placed upon me. Strength of body to deliver to safety all those placed within my care.
I promise the wisdom to lead, the compassion to comfort, and the love to serve unselfishly whenever I am called.
-unknown author-
The Firefighter’s Creed:
When I’m called to duty
God, Wherever flames may rage
Give me strength to save a life
Whatever be it’s age
Help me to embrace a little child
Before it is to late
Or save an older person from
The horror of that fate
Enable me to be alert
To hear the weakest shout
And quickly and efficiently
To put the fire out
I want to fill my calling and
To give the best in me
To guard my neighbor and
Protect his property
And if according to your will
I have to lose my life
Bless with your protecting hand
My children and my wife
After reading what a firefighter is suppose to live by and stand for, do you still think the problem with
America today is that we expect somebody else to do something?
What a tragedy for the fire service! This is Fire Prevention Week and this event puts quite the black eye on firefighters.I realize this is a rural area, but I honestly don’t know anyone that portrays themselves as firefighters could allow this to happen. I am a career firefighter with 20t years of service and volunteer in our rural area where I live. These people that were dressed up like firemen should resign, turn in their gear, and forget about a livelihood that represents true firefighters. They should not be allowed to associate with the fire “profession”. as they have proved that they have no pride nor ownership in this area.
OK, I see that with a few exceptions we are all agreeing in our comments:
1) The city of South Fulton TN has an absolute moral obligation to provide fire fighting services to the surrounding communities that do not have their own fire departments.
2) Even when there is no immediate risk to human life, they must respond.
3) The payment or lack of payment of subscription may not be considered in whether they report. So if no one pays a subscription, the taxpayers of South Fulton have to fund the required equipment and training in advance anyway, in hopes that they can recover the costs after the fact from charging for fire calls. Note that the city of South Fulton has hydrants, but the bulk of the rural properties do not.
(Oh, and also the city residents now have a huge increase in their insurance premiums, because the department was ISO 5 but now that we make it explicit that they must respond to the whole county, it is more like ISO 10. Sorry guys.)
4) When they do respond out of district, they are required to aggressively fight the fire even if their normal protocol would be to make sure it is contained. If they arrive to find the structure “fully involved”, they must dump all of their water on it anyway, and risk their lives to ventilate it, even if the don’t have the capacity to carry enough water to have much effect on a fire that has spread to that extent.
It’s nice to see that we have come to the only moral response.
The fire department told him it was too late when they arrived to answer their call to duty on the neighbors house… Why didn’t he call the other fire departments in the tri county area? The fire Dept does respond if lives are in danger no matter what the subcription status is… But if the fire department did hose down the house then why on earth would people be compelled to pay the fee? I agree the law was stupid.. I don’t even know why they had an Opt out policy but then again I can’t presume to understand their economic issues… I’m not saying this guy deserved to have his house burn down.. I’m saying we need to let him take the responsibility for his house burning down… Just as we would for people whose house burned down and didn’t have fire insurance in the city… If that was me.. I wouldn’t want someone to demonize a fire dept. for something I could have prevented… Either by not burning on my property or not funding the fire dept.
when you start implementing the philosophy of “everyone according to there needs and to each according to their ability” you’ll see peoples needs magically increase and their ability magically decrease
Nick?
Buddy! Your missing the whole point of this discussion, fire departments were created and exist today as a proactive measure to “help out a neighbor”, which subsequently helps us all out when the fire is put out and is not allowed to spread. It’s what we would call a win-win situation. Clearly you don’t believe in this concept and that is why people like you stifle social progress. You state that we have a problem America, expecting everbody else to do something for us, I would say the real problem is people like you who are unwilling to help others in need. People will make poor decisions such as this guy did when not paying for his FD dues, but that is something to be expected and it is our duty to rectifiy this problem by requiring fire insurance when you by a home.
Bryan!!
Trust me I’ve helped out putting a few out of control fires out in my day… I’ll be honest I don’t believe in helping others who think my assistance is some entitled benefit… my help should never be demanded… that’s not helping thats subserviance.. I’m not a slave to others and don’t expect others to be slaves of me… that’s not equality…
I’ll be the first to run into a burning building to save someone regardless of anything else or cost to me.. because I value life and nothing is more valuable… but if noone is in danger, I’m not gonna risk my life over some pieces of wood, my kid’s aren’t worth it.. I live in a trailer…If I didn’t pay my fire subscription.. I wouldn’t even have the nerve to call on a fire dept. to risk their lives to save my trailer because I didn’t pay for that service.. I guess I just don’t hold wood with as much priority as everyone else…
Basically it’s like saying “hey help me keep the fire dept. going encase there is a fire” and then someone saying.. “nah i’d rather buy a game for my wii” then a few month’s later saying “hey you got a fire dept… YOU MUST HELP save my wii!!!”… that is superfiscial nonsense!!! and to what makes it worse is everyone saying the fire fighter’s should risk their lives over wood regardless if the guy thought his house was worth more than 75 dollars
and Bryam don’t woory the guy didn’t “forget” to pay for insurance on his home…
You’re still missing it Nick. The firefighters watched it burn while this guy and even neighbors begged them to stop the fire. Do you really think the neighbors were in their houses when the fire was raging towards theirs? No. They were outside too. Based on your logic that it’s just a piece of wood, why would the fire fighters put the fire out on his neighbor’s houses since they were probably all outside watching this? The horrible thing is they did nothing. Even if there was barely anything left, they did nothing. They were there and they did nothing until it affected those who paid. If you were a firefighter on the scene and they put the money in your hands and said, “Please save my home! Here’s the money! Save my home!” would you look them in the eye and say “It’s too late”? Because that’s what these guys did. Search your soul Nick. Search really hard and find the answer. This story is tragic and inhumane. There’s no two ways about it.
and conscience; you’re assuming it only takes 75 dollars for fire fighters to respond to a call…
You didn’t answer my question.
And the conscience; To answer your question: the answer is yes… the fire fighters upheld their oath and creed because their duty was to others (when called) not to property… The problem isn’t the fire fighters.. it’s the middle man…
Conscience…
Picture yourself as a fireman,,, you get to a situation and you see a house already ablaze and unsavable.. and another house which is about to be burned… what would you do? considering the first house thought your services were not worth 75 bucks and the second house paid what was considered more than reasonable… what would be more important to you? and why?
Nick,
They did not uphold their creed because property is a part of it. I’ll quote that part again:
“…I want to fill my calling and
To give the best in me
To guard my neighbor and
Protect his property..”
They failed to uphold their creed. Plain and simple.
To answer your questions, I would stop the fire not only because it is the right thing to do, but because the other properties around it would be at risk of catching fire. See that’s what you do when there’s a fire. You stop it so it doesn’t spread. That question was easy. Re-read the noble Fireman’s Creed and Oath I posted above. You’ll see it has nothing to do with monetary value. It has everything to do with saving human lives and their property. I don’t know how else I could explain it to you.
I’m not sure if you are a religious man but this action also goes against Christian teaching. This could easily be compared to the parable of the Good Samaritan. These “firefighters” were the Pharisees and high priests that left the beaten man for dead. In the parable, these men were not blessed. Blessed was the Samaritan who came to the aid of the naked beaten man, clothed him and paid for his shelter, food and drink. Who will you count yourself with Nick?
Conscience… I truly honor your thought process.. I am somewhat of a religious man.. and I also believe the good Lord would want us to help others.. the fire fighters stopped the fire from spreading and endangering others.. but do not think God would hold such a premise on possesions… I believe this action better correalates with the thessolonians verse of “a man that does not work, does not eat”… in short life is sacred,, possesions are not… if we deem that these things ae equal them what would we be able to hold sacred?
It’s not about material possession. It’s about helping someone in need.
Put yourself in the home owner’s shoes for a second. Would you be okay if your house was burning down and the fireman standing beside his firetruck watched it fall? Would you be willing to lose all of your memories and the lives of your pets while these guys stand idly by waiting for your American dream to smolder out on it’s own simply on the principle that you shouldn’t be attached to material possessions? Would you think to yourself, “I deserved this.” while the heat of the fire burned your face and the smoke penetrated your lungs while a water hose ready to fire spills not one drop on what was left of your home?
Nick….I just can’t help but picture this big ignorant, angry responder. I don’t dare call you a Fire Fighter, because this title deserves respect. You have not demonstrated the belief in the virtues of the job.
I am glad that the majority of emergency personel are hard workers who believe in assisting the community. We are all well aware that all First Responders put them selves in some form of danger at every call. Heck, every time we drive code3 our chances of an MVC increases exponentially.
In this case, the system you are defending is grossly neglegent and outdated.
Maybe a new career option that doesn’t involve, let’s say….kindness and caring for you, would be a nice change. Maybe something with computers?
Bryan….you are absolutely correct. Thank you for your thoughts.
I’m not a fire fighter… but I do help my neighbors out…
So you guys are basically saying that everyone in that county that did pay the 75 dollar fire fee were suckers that wasted their money on a totally free service?
At least the Cranicks are taking responsibility… according to this AP article the wife doesn’t blame the fire Dept. and they are not accepting an monetary help they say the insurance is paying for the damages…
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gDfgMP_E0tdxWoStirdC9tycATygD9IML9VO0?docId=D9IML9VO0
No. What I’m saying is they should have saved the man’s home and possibly charged him a penalty fee later. But they should do their job and put the fire out for everyone’s safety.
“What I’m saying is they should have saved the man’s home and possibly charged him a penalty fee later.”
What about the next time the same family has a fire, after forgetting the fee again?
Quite statistically unlikely, I know…
Should the fire department save his stuff 5 times in a row?
4?
Fire fighters should fight fires. Period. This is not a difficult concept.
I am sure the fire equipment was purchased by tax payers money as well as grants from the federal ,state and county goverments.where is a good lawyer when you need him. SUE-SUE-SUE
From another article, this *is* actually the second time the same family had a fire after “forgetting” to pay the fee. The first time, the fire department did put it out. What are the odds of that? Makes me wonder on their history of actually paying the fee. They claim they just forgot but normally do pay it, but forgetting twice and both times they just happen to have a fire? If I was the insurance company, I would be double checking that situation for fraud.
The homeowner was asked by the town 6 times if he wanted to receive fire protection before they took him off the list.
Some of you have speculated that, perhaps, in that low income part of the country, the Cranicks couldn’t afford the fee. However, when the fire was raging he somehow managed to have enough money to offer “whatever it takes” to put it out. He had previously been a non-payer. This is a clear cut case of someone who thought he could get something for nothing and sadly learned he was wrong. Is it a tragedy that his house burned down and his pets died? It sure is. But who’s fault is it? It’s the JOB of the firefighters to put out fires, but it’s not their FAULT because it’s not their JOB to put out ALL fires. I live in another state and that department is not required to drive over here and put out my fire. I suppose if I paid them enough, they might. For the Cranicks that would have been $75.
Some of you had asked “what if there was someone inside?” What if, what if, what if. I ask what if he had paid? It’s not extortion. It’s a service and in this case it is not paid for by taxes, so it doesn’t have the appearance of being free to all who need it. You’ve got a similar situation arising with Obama care. Someday everyone in this country will think medical care is free. It isn’t. It has costs, but when it is paid by the tax levy, it seems as though it is free. Today, at this time, Mr. Cranick’s fire protection coverage was NOT paid for by taxes. You get NOTHING for free. If he didn’t want to risk losing everything, he should have paid the fee out of that big ol’ pot of “whatever it takes” that he had. He gambled with his possessions and lost. If it had been the only time he had “forgotten” I might have some sympathy for him, but he was a habitual non-payer trying to get something for nothing.
In reading this entire thread of comments it’s easy for me to see which folks I’d like to have as neighbors.
When the day comes that people are perfect and no one makes mistakes we won’t need to worry about who “deserves” help. Until then, some people will have problems, including problems of their own making, that require us to make decisions about why we’re here and our relationship to others.
That’s part of living in society. The bottom line isn’t about who deserves to be helped but about who you are. If you are perfect please go live with other perfect people in your problem-free world. The rest of us will just have to muddle along without you as we try to live according to the Golden Rule. And if some day you need us, we’ll be ready to help you, too. Because integrity means more to some of us than cash flow.
Your kidding right? I have yet to see such an article if it actually exists. Why would anybody intentionally “forget” to pay for their fire service and then start a fire. What would be gained from that? It makes no cents whatsoever. Maybe I am missing something though.
I have noticed that people like Tired of it have ignored the main question. The main question is did the fire fighters do the right thing by just standing there and watch somebodies home burn to the ground when they had the means to put it out. Everything I have read indicates they had paid before I have not seen an article to the contrary if there is such produce it
did the fire fighters do the right thing by just standing there and watch somebodies home burn to the ground when they had the means to put it out?
Did they have the means? we are talking about a rural area, so when the truck runs out of water on board the have to go refill… what would happen if they ran out of water and the house of the dude who paid the fire protection fee caught fire while they went and refilled? What if they sue the fire dept and the county losses city fire coverage? btw the county voters opted for the 75 dollar fee over a 13 cent per 100 dollar property tax.. (which is cheaper if your property is worth over 60,000) I don’t buy the “i forgot this year” because they are mailed reminders and before the july cutoff date all county residents who haven’t responded are called to make sure they don’t want to pay the fee…
There was a chimney fire 3 years earlier that the fire dept put out for them and let them pay the fee in full the next day…
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2010/10/05/113824.htm#ixzz11hr87xTS
I don’t think anyone here is denying that Mr. Cranick is in the wrong for not paying his Pay-to-Spray fee. He is at fault for not paying. But 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
Like it or not, the system in Obion County is one that the local taxpayers have intentionally supported for at least two decades.
If non-subscribers are allowed to freeload, then soon everyone will do it.
That will put the city of South Fulton (pop. 2,500) in the position of providing free fire protection to Obion County (pop. in excess of 30,000) SFFD currently has no ability to bill for fire suppression after the fact.
The firefighters, the fire chief, and the elected officials of South Fulton did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do.
Further questions:
Is it ethical or fair for South Fulton to be required to provide free services for some county residents while the next-door neighbor pays his fair share?
Was the homeowners’ escalating offers of payment to the fire chief an attempt at bribing a public official?
Counter to the title of this blog, if the fire chief had accepted the homeowner’s payment, would that have been considered extortion?
The city of South Fulton, the fire chief, and the firefighters categorically did NOT engage in extortion in this case. Extortion is a threat of force or some other bad outcome to get someone to give money or other things of value to the extortionist. In this case, the homeowner wasn’t going to get the service, no matter what – ergo, no extortion on the part of the FD.
The fire department did exactly what the homeowner paid for. Like it or not, that’s the local system. Apparenlty the county taxpayers have a 20-year record of believing that they can’t afford anything else.
A short explanation of how insurance works…
The total costs involved in saving this guys house… ie: water, labor, equipent, depreciation…
They do not cost a merely 75 dollars.
An insurance company doesn’t charge each person between 50 and 80 dollars a month for car insurance baking that each of its customers will actually have an auto accident. If that were the case each driver would have to pay a much higher payment.
Instead the Insurance Company sets its prices gambling that most customers will in fact not have a car accident. This is how the Insurance company stays in business.
Now the fire department protection plan works very similarly. The owner couldn’t offer the 75 dollars after the fact. Thats like getting into a car accident and then calling up your insurance company to purchase a plan that will cover your damages. The fire department gambles that out of the paying customers only a few will actually need service. If they thought every house would catch on fire that year I can assure you that the protection plan would cost more than $75.
Now a short finance lesson.
If a business provides services without some sort of income to sustain that business then the business will cease to exist. If this city fire department continued to provide fire protection to all the residents of the rural county community for free then the fire department would “cease to exist” and therefore be unable to provide there services to anyone.
These are very basic business principles learned in college. Its unfortunate that this guy did not have fire protection but at some point it needs to fall under the category of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Ben makes a good point about the definition of extortion with regards to this story. I would still argue, though they did nothing wrong when it comes to their policy, they did fail to comply with the fireman’s creed and oath. If a policy conflicts with the basic oath and creed, that policy needs to be revisited and rewritten.
Chris, you are comparing apples to oranges. An insurance company is a service that is used after an accident while a fire department is an on the sight rescue service. Using your scenario of the car accident, let’s plop another on the sight rescue service, like an EMT, at the sight of the accident instead of the insurance company. Now picture there was an EMT yearly service fee the accident victim didn’t pay. So the EMT showed up to the sight and waited…and waited…and waited only helping if there were others who were on the pay list that got into an accident due to this one. I think this is where most of us are coming from when we read this story. It just doesn’t make sense.
Again, if it’s about the all mighty dollar to pay for services, a hefty fine could have been charged to Mr. Cranick which would more than likely deter him from repeating his mistake while bringing income to the fire department. But nothing, and I mean nothing, is worth the price of losing all of your memories and everything you own. No penalty should ever be worth that much. That is cruel and unusual punishment.
both still fruit…. Difference of opinions. I do like the point of extortion though. Great discussion.
Agreed. They are both services.
I pay a fire tax to Cheatham County but the Fire Department let the last house fire on my street in Pegram burn to the ground, Overheard comment was “you are better off with a total loss in dealing with the insurance company!” 3 other fire departments responded but the Fire Hydrant in front of State Representative Phillip Johnson’s house 2 doors away is “blacked out” The County just wants the appearance of fire service.
I too live in Cheatham county just across the street from the Pleasant View border line and I get from the fire department all the time the, its time to pay your dues so please donate. Well it wouldn’t be so bad if they would let you donate what you could even if it was just $20.00 especially with me being disabled and being on a seriously fixed income with nothing left over each month. But to be forced to pay what they ONLY have down to pay is extortion in my books. They already have a set amount what they want you pay, it’s anything but a donation,,,they really misuse that word DONATE. I was highly upset when the Village was being built and then all the sudden the fire dept needed a new truck with a ladder that could get up really high because of the high rise buildings they were building there. So the cost of that truck was all on us to pay because of a place I would have rather not seen built. Its the country out here not Nashville and thats why I moved out here. I just think that this fire is asking more than what many can actually give and if I could afford there DONATION I would, and if not they should still have to put a fire out at my house if I called them. If they didn’t I see that as them profiling me as a non payer home owner and they would allow my house to burn down and that alone should be a crime in it’s self, it isnt a crime not pay to spray if you seriously cant afford it especially now days as hard as it is to just keep food on the table then you should be penalized. If your not rich or living in one of these fancy new neighborhoods they keep building, more then likely your poor and cant afford that set amount donation they want from you. If everyone just paid $20.00 a year I would say they would be able to do what needed to be done. What ever happened to the REAL meaning of Volunteer Fire Department.
It seems like video tutorials are being used a lot right this moment, an excessive amount of in fact. Possibly I’m old fashioned but I do like to read and digest info more slowly from time to time.